Faeton escribió:Estimado "parzifal" No esperaba seas tan reaccionario. No me baso en rayos, sino de propia prensa chilena, Si es prensa amarillista o no… Sergio García consultor de temas de defensa.
Estimado, no escupo a ningún lado, tengo dos/tres amigos chilenos, dos con los que me trato muy seguido y hablamos de estos como de otros temas (fútbol-aeronáutica-computación-el trabajo LAN) sin llegar nunca a las trompadas, de ellos mismos me entero que las autoridades de la Armada de Chile se quejan del excesivo consumo de los motores, ya que esos barcos están preparados para funcionar a 30 nudos y debido a esto consumen mucho combustible (naves tipo 22/23) es como que se están dando cuenta de que no sirve comprar todos los barcos de distinto modelo, por que si bien se los puede integrar operativamente, no así desde el punto logístico.
Otra novedad de propia es la falta de practica del personal de la tipo 22, (por favor charla con alguien de la propia armada y no con fanáticos) no pueden hacer tiro de cañones, fuego de apoyo naval (ej. Nuestra tipo 22 lo realiza sin problemas) por que no tiene cañones, esto es ya sabido, lo único que pueden hacer es tirar misiles… y son enormemente costosos a diferencia de la munición de cañón, y aunque estén en mejores condiciones presupuestarias … no les sobra el dinero y tampoco están disparando misiles por lógicas razones.
Respecto a tu comentario de que la ARA es la mas atrasada del atlántico Sur… me parece no solo poco objetivo sino poco serio el comentario.
Países del atlántico Sur: Venezuela, Guyana Suriname, Guyana Francesa, Brasil, Uruguay, Argentina. A entender de los analistas es la segunda.
Vos comentas que “en Chile ASMAR, construye los PZM bastante buenos te diré, el acero laminado es comprado a Inglaterra socios incondicionales “
Yo te comento que en Argentina, no en un Astillero sino en Domeq Garcia, BNPB y Rió Santiago, también se construyen y hacen recorridas a navíos.
Y respecto a que en ASMAR construye el segundo y hasta ahora ultimo PZM…
aquí se comenzó con la construcción del primero de cinco POM (equivalente al PZM, mismo proyecto conjunto Argentino-Chileno proyecto alemán del astillero Fassmer), veras que hay pocas diferencias entres los patrulleros chilenos y argentinos… pero dejo que tu mismo descubras esas diferencias y me comentes al respecto
aqui se aprende una leccion, lo que dijo el amigo del amigo del primo del amigo, no corre, perfectamente podria sacar al baile a mi familia, pero no es correcto como me hizo ver en su momento el señor Iris, Hunter y Pit,
no intentes ver posibles fallas infimas frente a las grandes falencias del ARA,
1-mala mantencion de sus buques, quedo en evidencia con lo aconetcido a su rompehielos y una de sus fragatas, en tiempos muy cortos se incendiarion... causa. mal cableado.
2-debes asumir, la rama mas debil de Argentina siempre ha sido la marina, incluso para el conflicto del año 78, cuando la escuadra nacional hacia lo que queria entremedio de los canales del estrecho de magallanes, me puedes decir que hizo el ARA? no contaban con instrumentos apropiados para navegar entre canales.
3-hoy en dia, que vengas a decir que las type 23 son con fallas etc etc etc, y dudo mucho que una turbina Royls Rolls fabricada con esmero e ingenieros ingleses tenga su so dicho problema. y no me cabe en la cabeza cmo un motor que tu dices deficiente, tendra problemas de consumo SI ES HIBRIDO ELECTRICO Y CON DIESEL. interesnate no?
te voy a citar un extenso texto que tendras que leer antes de seguir hablando de nuestras fragatas.
The Type 23 frigate is a true child of the Falklands War, as it represented the first occasion in which the painful lessons of the South Atlantic could be applied to a new class of ship.
The Type 23, or Duke class, was conceived in the late 1970s as an anti-submarine warship which could hold its own as a general-purpose weapon platform - in other words, a specialist submarine hunter but also a good all-rounder.
At about the same time the idea of the EH-101 was emerging from the wreckage of the WG34 programme, and these two resulting machines - the Type 23 frigate and the Merlin helicopter - progressed very much in tandem, with an eye to their combined capabilities.
When the first Type 23 orders were placed in October 1984 with Yarrow Shipbuilders at Scotstoun on the Clyde, who acted as designers and lead builder, the Duke class was to be first and foremost a series of ultra-quiet anti-submarine ships.
But the Falklands War of 1982 had a crucial role in the evolution of the design - for example, the major elements of the Type 23's weapon fit were not finalised until after the construction contract was signed, so rapid was the development of weapons systems.
Among the areas of particular concern were the ships' survivability, and their ability to defend themselves in combat. As a result, the Type 23 packs a bigger punch than many similar-sized ships, and its structural features qualify it as a genuinely 'stealthy' vessel.
The class remained, at the bottom line, an anti-submarine ship, and the Dukes were expected to patrol the deep waters of the North Atlantic with a towed sonar array which could pick up and track the sound of Soviet submarines.
Confused sonar patterns in shallower waters were to present fewer problems to the Type 23 than to earlier ships as the frigate's propulsions system was also designed to radiate as little noise as possible, both to avoid confusing the ship's own sonar, and to prevent the Royal Navy warship being detected by its prey.
The need to operate the Merlin helicopter - a bigger and heavier aircraft than the Sea King - was a major factor in the size of the vessel, and the fact that an aircraft is available for operations to a much higher degree when there is a sheltered environment in which to maintain it determined that the frigates would have a hangar.
As the design became crystallised and the time approached for the cutting of steel at the Glasgow shipyard, the Type 23 was expected to become a mainstay of the NATO fleet as it sought to contain Soviet forces in the far North, and to contribute to other operations in the Atlantic and other, shallower, seas.
It was certainly designed to form the backbone of the Royal Navy's surface flotilla, making up around half of the destroyer-frigate force - the workhorses of the modern Navy.
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Type 23 frigates were the first ships designed for the Royal Navy as stealth vessels, and as such, 'signature reduction' - the elimination of as much noise, heat and reflection as possible - was an important factor in the shape of the hull and installation of machinery.
The two principal signatures addressed by the Duke class are noise and radar cross-section.
Modern anti-submarine ships need to be quiet to avoid interfering with their own sonar systems, both hull-mounted and towed, and so the need to cut underwater noise has been paramount.
The choice of propulsion system - a combined diesel electric and gas turbine layout - is unusual for the Royal Navy, but fits the bill perfectly.
When required to sprint, the two Rolls-Royce Spey gas turbines feed 23.2mW through a GEC gearbox to two shafts, allowing the Type 23 to reach speeds approaching 30 knots.
But while tracking a contact, when silence is vital, the ship is powered by two GEC electric motors, connected directly to the shafts and turning two big low-speed revolving propellers. This means the noisy gearboxes, lubricating pumps and other linked machinery can be shut down, eliminating clutter in the sonar picture.
All noise-generating machinery has been identified and isolated by insulating material, or by being placed on acoustic rafts, and hull vibration equipment monitors unusual noise to help identify particular problems from within the ship.
Meanwhile the radar cross-section - the size of the target the ship presents to an enemy radar operator - has also been addressed.
The strength of the echo a ship presents is not directly related to its size - modern radar reflectors on small yachts and fishing boats present large radar cross-sections - but to other factors such as the wavelength at which the radar illuminates its target.
By reducing this cross-section, the chance of an enemy radar-guided missile locking-on is reduced, and there is consequently a better chance of decoys distracting the incoming missile.
Because the main threat was perceived as being from sea-skimming missiles, with a single combined transmitter and receiver low on the horizon, the geometry of the Type 23 was designed to prevent radar beams being reflected back to the missile.
The superstructure has a seven degree slope to all vertical surfaces, and all edges are rounded, while the 133-metre hull is noticeably flared along its length; this means the horizontal radar beams of the enemy missile are scattered harmlessly into the sky or sea, and not back to the weapon.
Just as importantly, deck fittings and equipment have been reduced as much as possible, and that which remains is designed to present a minimal signature; all the good work of the hull and superstructure design could have been undone with a poorly-designed locker or housing.
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The Duke class is an effective submarine hunter - and when it finds its target, it possesses the ability to do a lot of damage.
Towed sonar arrays - Type 2031 in the first ten of the class, with the remaining six expected to be fitted with the new Type 2087 from the middle of the decade - and the hull-mounted Type 2050, in a bow dome, pick up the sound of a submarine at considerable distances.
Towed arrays are most effective when streamed out behind the frigates at a low speed in deep, quiet water, and contacts can be cross-checked against known surface shipping in the area to refine the search for an enemy boat.
Merlin will add the icing to the cake by providing a fast, long-range pinpoint capability - it can fly off to check a particular sound with its dipping sonar, and data from the aircraft will be sent direct to the ship, effectively extending the anti-submarine clout of the Dukes by hundreds of miles.
If an attack is deemed necessary, the Merlin can deliver up to four lightweight Stingray homing torpedoes or depth bombs at some distance from the mother ship; if the contact is at close quarters, the Duke class can also fire Stingrays from two sets of twin launch tubes.
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Again, the Falklands War provided a painful reminder of the need for effective self-defence for any ship, and the Duke class reflects that lesson.
Type 23 frigates now operate worldwide as singletons - on their own, maybe with just a small Fleet tanker for support - but can just as easily be called in to act as a close escort for a task group.
The first line of defence for the frigates is the electronic warfare (EW) suite and air-warning systems, vital in an anti-air warfare (AAW) scenario.
The latter is centred on a flexible, three-dimensional radar system, Type 996(1), which scans for and identifies both high-level aircraft or diving missiles and sea-skimming threats, linking in to the ship's combat system to allow such threats to be dealt with quickly.
Merlin, with its Blue Kestrel 5000 radar, can also act as an airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft in such situations.
Once identified, an aerial threat will most likely be dealt with using the vertical launch Seawolf system; the vertical launch pattern is particularly useful in that there is no 'blind spot' on the ship - any missile can be handled by the most convenient fire-control tracker, whereas older systems tied a missile to a particular tracker, which might be at the wrong angle to counter the incoming missile or aircraft.
Seawolf missiles are situated in a rack of 32 canisters just forward of the bridge, breaking through the cover of the tube when launched and clearing the ship before discarding the launch booster motor and turning to meet the threat.
In addition, ships of the Duke class have two 30mm power-driven anti-aircraft cannon amidships, and the Vickers 4.5in gun forward of the Seawolf launch system can also knock aircraft out of the sky.
Passive defence is provided by a Sea Gnat decoy system and electronic jamming devices, and a towed torpedo decoy may be deployed.
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In addition to the anti-submarine warfare capabilities outlined earlier, and those systems primarily designed for self-defence, the Type 23 frigate has a number of attacking weapons.
The Vickers Mk 8 4.5in gun is primarily fitted for naval gunfire support operations, banging off 21kg shells to a distance of more than 12 miles, and it can just as easily be used against ships.
Duke-class frigates also carry Harpoon missiles as the principal weapon in dealing with the threat from other warships or surface targets; these missiles carry a hefty warhead more than 70 miles at close to the speed of sound, using radar to home in on the target in the final stages of the attack.
If a Lynx helicopter is carried, then air-launched Sea Skua anti-ship missiles are also available.